Comments on: Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Turnout – How to Nurture Your Turnout http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/ Giving students, teachers, and parents an edge in dance education Sat, 11 Feb 2012 13:08:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Nichelle (admin) http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-5042 Nichelle (admin) Fri, 06 May 2011 19:29:54 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-5042 Hi Vivien! I have yet to find a video or image of this specific exercise - and I'm currently too pregnant to make a one myself - but it may help to visualize it as similar to a Pilates "bridge" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t2oFd58h7c). Opening one leg, you use it (and your other foot) to press into the bridge. Lifting the opposite leg once you're up just makes it harder so start with just the press up. This actually works the external rotators (turnout muscles). The stretch part (opening both legs in the belly-up frog) actually comes AFTER. The idea is that contracting the opposing muscles helps to release the ones you're trying to stretch. Hi Vivien! I have yet to find a video or image of this specific exercise – and I’m currently too pregnant to make a one myself – but it may help to visualize it as similar to a Pilates “bridge” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t2oFd58h7c).

Opening one leg, you use it (and your other foot) to press into the bridge. Lifting the opposite leg once you’re up just makes it harder so start with just the press up. This actually works the external rotators (turnout muscles). The stretch part (opening both legs in the belly-up frog) actually comes AFTER. The idea is that contracting the opposing muscles helps to release the ones you’re trying to stretch.

]]> By: Vivien http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-5028 Vivien Thu, 05 May 2011 15:04:21 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-5028 "You might also try a less passive version: While lying, point both knees to the ceiling. Open one knee toward the floor and press down with this leg, lifting the thigh, hips and lower spine off the floor. Maintain this press and lift the opposite leg off the floor so that only the rotated leg and the shoulders are supporting the body. Hold this for 20-30 seconds (breathe!) and then release and lie with both knees open wide, then repeat with the other leg." I can't visualise this stretch. Could you please link to a youtube video or explain it with photos or something? Thanks for this comprehensive article which both explains the anatomy side of turn out as well as ways to do it. I have been struggling with turn out and You have no idea how much your article encourages me :) Explain that stretch/exercise! “You might also try a less passive version: While lying, point both knees to the ceiling. Open one knee toward the floor and press down with this leg, lifting the thigh, hips and lower spine off the floor. Maintain this press and lift the opposite leg off the floor so that only the rotated leg and the shoulders are supporting the body. Hold this for 20-30 seconds (breathe!) and then release and lie with both knees open wide, then repeat with the other leg.”

I can’t visualise this stretch. Could you please link to a youtube video or explain it with photos or something?

Thanks for this comprehensive article which both explains the anatomy side of turn out as well as ways to do it. I have been struggling with turn out and You have no idea how much your article encourages me :)

Explain that stretch/exercise!

]]> By: Nichelle http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1581 Nichelle Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:47:15 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-1581 Happy that you found the explanations helpful! Per your questions on releasing the external rotators, you could use pinkie balls (a small, firm rubber ball) or foam rollers to release the deep rotators. Basically you would roll your glutes/deep rotators over the object (in other words, the object is between you and the floor). I believe the Conditioning for Dance book above has examples and other ideas, and you might search The Body Series blog (http://blog.thebodyseries.com) for some additional thoughts or exercises. The yoga twist stretch (above) is another way to "get at" those often tight external rotators. Or, lie on your back, bend one knee and bring it into your chest, then drop it across the body so that the knee is touching or nearing the floor in a twist. I've found that I can address different areas of my rotators and IT band depending on where I place the knee (closer to my shoulder or lower, etc). Also consider massaging the area with your fingers or a pinkie ball during the stretch to help release. Hope this helps! Thanks for reading! Happy that you found the explanations helpful! Per your questions on releasing the external rotators, you could use pinkie balls (a small, firm rubber ball) or foam rollers to release the deep rotators. Basically you would roll your glutes/deep rotators over the object (in other words, the object is between you and the floor). I believe the Conditioning for Dance book above has examples and other ideas, and you might search The Body Series blog (http://blog.thebodyseries.com) for some additional thoughts or exercises.

The yoga twist stretch (above) is another way to “get at” those often tight external rotators. Or, lie on your back, bend one knee and bring it into your chest, then drop it across the body so that the knee is touching or nearing the floor in a twist. I’ve found that I can address different areas of my rotators and IT band depending on where I place the knee (closer to my shoulder or lower, etc). Also consider massaging the area with your fingers or a pinkie ball during the stretch to help release.

Hope this helps! Thanks for reading!

]]> By: Yina Ng http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1580 Yina Ng Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:19:40 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-1580 Hi there- Thanks for such a clear explanation of the turnout. I started dancing in college four years ago, and last two years I started having a lot of problem in both of my hip sockets, and my lower back. And the pain usually happen together and on the same side. Naturally, I very little turn out, and so I always feel pathetic in dance classes where every one else has a better turnout than me. So may be I was forcing it in class and didn't know until my back and hip sockets started to hurt. I went to physical therapy this summer and he recommended me to strengthen my external rotators with some exercises. I also want to work on release them as well. You wrote about releasing the inward rotators, but do you have ways to release the external rotators as well? Thanks and I appreciate your post! Hi there- Thanks for such a clear explanation of the turnout. I started dancing in college four years ago, and last two years I started having a lot of problem in both of my hip sockets, and my lower back. And the pain usually happen together and on the same side. Naturally, I very little turn out, and so I always feel pathetic in dance classes where every one else has a better turnout than me. So may be I was forcing it in class and didn’t know until my back and hip sockets started to hurt. I went to physical therapy this summer and he recommended me to strengthen my external rotators with some exercises. I also want to work on release them as well. You wrote about releasing the inward rotators, but do you have ways to release the external rotators as well? Thanks and I appreciate your post!

]]> By: Nichelle http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1036 Nichelle Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:26:37 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-1036 Thank you, Christine for those words of caution! It is a reality that young dancers need to hear! Thank you, Christine for those words of caution! It is a reality that young dancers need to hear!

]]> By: Christine http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1035 Christine Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:13:49 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-1035 I cannot overemphasize the importance of not forcing the body to do what it is not able to do. I started dancing at age 7-8 and had my first knee subluxation soon after. In eleven years of training, including three years at the SF Ballet School, my knee subluxed five times and jammed once followed by my first knee surgery. Too late. My career was over before it had a chance to begin. I then had a partial knee replacement in my mid-thirties, and now, a decade later, my "good" knee is trying to dislocate. So . . . if a student's body isn't suited to ballet, consider steering that student into a different activity. If the student is as stubborn as I was, get physical therapy going asap! I cannot overemphasize the importance of not forcing the body to do what it is not able to do. I started dancing at age 7-8 and had my first knee subluxation soon after. In eleven years of training, including three years at the SF Ballet School, my knee subluxed five times and jammed once followed by my first knee surgery. Too late. My career was over before it had a chance to begin. I then had a partial knee replacement in my mid-thirties, and now, a decade later, my “good” knee is trying to dislocate. So . . . if a student’s body isn’t suited to ballet, consider steering that student into a different activity. If the student is as stubborn as I was, get physical therapy going asap!

]]> By: danceadvantage http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-115 danceadvantage Mon, 20 Oct 2008 03:43:26 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-115 Thanks Leslea. Again, I am so glad that folks are finding this useful. The understanding and implementation of proper turnout is so important! It can be difficult to find new ways of getting students excited about this part of their education. Perhaps the trick is to just keep trying to present it in new ways (which is why it is great to read others' suggestions). I've found that going the extra mile and bringing visual tools of the anatomy into the studio also have a positive affect. Results in dance are sometimes slow but when a student does get results from working properly, it is an amazing transformation as they seek to know more. Thanks Leslea. Again, I am so glad that folks are finding this useful. The understanding and implementation of proper turnout is so important!

It can be difficult to find new ways of getting students excited about this part of their education. Perhaps the trick is to just keep trying to present it in new ways (which is why it is great to read others’ suggestions). I’ve found that going the extra mile and bringing visual tools of the anatomy into the studio also have a positive affect. Results in dance are sometimes slow but when a student does get results from working properly, it is an amazing transformation as they seek to know more.

]]> By: Leslea from Uptown Dance NJ http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-116 Leslea from Uptown Dance NJ Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:47:43 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-116 These are great posts Nichelle. As a young dancer, turnout was never fully explained to me. It was not until college I learned I was forcing my turnout as you explained in Part 1. Thankfully, I never got an injury and was able to recondition my body using proper turnout techniques. When I became a teacher I made sure I explained in full the process and use of turnout. I still get students looking at me with bored faces and if they could I know they would say, "ok, we get it Miss Leslea" or "we have heard this before." I use many of the exercises and descriptions you mentioned. One other that I often use is my fist over a cuffed hand to represent the hip socket. I find it very important as a teacher to explain technique and how the dancers body functions. I am going to refer all my students to these posts. Thanks Nichelle =) These are great posts Nichelle. As a young dancer, turnout was never fully explained to me. It was not until college I learned I was forcing my turnout as you explained in Part 1. Thankfully, I never got an injury and was able to recondition my body using proper turnout techniques. When I became a teacher I made sure I explained in full the process and use of turnout. I still get students looking at me with bored faces and if they could I know they would say, “ok, we get it Miss Leslea” or “we have heard this before.” I use many of the exercises and descriptions you mentioned. One other that I often use is my fist over a cuffed hand to represent the hip socket. I find it very important as a teacher to explain technique and how the dancers body functions. I am going to refer all my students to these posts. Thanks Nichelle =)

]]> By: danceadvantage http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-117 danceadvantage Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:37:26 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-117 Amber, thanks for sharing your personal experience with the overuse of turnout. I hope other dancers and teachers will read what you've written and take to heart the need to seek balance in muscular training. Amber, thanks for sharing your personal experience with the overuse of turnout. I hope other dancers and teachers will read what you’ve written and take to heart the need to seek balance in muscular training.

]]> By: Amber http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-118 Amber Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:06:33 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-118 wow great information! As a professional modern dancer who trained extensively in ballet I have seen the effects of overusing turnout not only in my own body, but now in my pilates clients. Unfortunately the ballet aesthetic puts way to much strain on the hip joint. It overemphasizes turnout without training in parallel and even turn in. A normal person has equal amounts of turnout and turn in. If you ask a dancer to turn in from the femur chances are they won't go very far. I could hardly turn my legs in or keep them in parallel for long periods of time. Red flag!! The key to hip longevity and injury prevention is to equally strengthen all muscles in the hip...in parallel and turnout. Ever since I was introduced to modern and pilates my sciatica disappeared. Even when I take ballet classes I have to watch my alignment and make sure I do all I can to keep those deep rotators loose and happy. Thanks for sharing! I know it's a huge problem for a lot of dancers. wow great information! As a professional modern dancer who trained extensively in ballet I have seen the effects of overusing turnout not only in my own body, but now in my pilates clients. Unfortunately the ballet aesthetic puts way to much strain on the hip joint. It overemphasizes turnout without training in parallel and even turn in. A normal person has equal amounts of turnout and turn in. If you ask a dancer to turn in from the femur chances are they won’t go very far. I could hardly turn my legs in or keep them in parallel for long periods of time. Red flag!! The key to hip longevity and injury prevention is to equally strengthen all muscles in the hip…in parallel and turnout. Ever since I was introduced to modern and pilates my sciatica disappeared. Even when I take ballet classes I have to watch my alignment and make sure I do all I can to keep those deep rotators loose and happy. Thanks for sharing! I know it’s a huge problem for a lot of dancers.

]]> By: danceadvantage http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-114 danceadvantage Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:57:38 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-114 You're very welcome. I'm so glad you found the articles helpful. I have never had great turnout either but some of the release techniques really make a difference. I get particularly tight in the hip flexors if I neglect them. And I think you are right about modern's influence in ballet. You’re very welcome. I’m so glad you found the articles helpful. I have never had great turnout either but some of the release techniques really make a difference. I get particularly tight in the hip flexors if I neglect them. And I think you are right about modern’s influence in ballet.

]]> By: ladyamalthea91 http://danceadvantage.net/2008/10/10/turnout-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-113 ladyamalthea91 Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:35:58 +0000 http://danceadvantage.wordpress.com/?p=443#comment-113 I definately think that the ballet aesthetic is changing! Modern dance & ballet have been coming together more and more lately. Classical ballet is becoming more "extreme" & mixing with the more powerful positions of modern. Modern does utilize turn out but it is less forced & there are many parallel positions. I think that modern & ballet together are beautiful & take the extreme parts of each style & balance them together. I have been struggling with my turnout for a few years now. My teachers have always labeled by turnout as poor, & have told me I will never be able to improve it. I went to physiotherapists for help & they told me that my hips were weak & damaged. Since then, I've been doing small amount of hip exercises (the clam), taking mooooore ballet technique classes (which have helped an incredible amount), & i have been stretching my hips as much as possible. My favorite hip stretch --> you are sitting in a double-stag position on the ground. "Open" your legs more, as in, unbend your knees, unscrunch your stag position. Then, lean onto one side of your hip so you can lean over your front leg. You can extend or contract your legs to get more stretch. Its my favorite! Thank you so much for these turn out articles, they have really encouraged me to keep working on my turn-out. Also they have given me hope that turn-out isn't everything. Thanks! I definately think that the ballet aesthetic is changing!
Modern dance & ballet have been coming together more and more lately. Classical ballet is becoming more “extreme” & mixing with the more powerful positions of modern. Modern does utilize turn out but it is less forced & there are many parallel positions. I think that modern & ballet together are beautiful & take the extreme parts of each style & balance them together.

I have been struggling with my turnout for a few years now. My teachers have always labeled by turnout as poor, & have told me I will never be able to improve it. I went to physiotherapists for help & they told me that my hips were weak & damaged.
Since then, I’ve been doing small amount of hip exercises (the clam), taking mooooore ballet technique classes (which have helped an incredible amount), & i have been stretching my hips as much as possible.

My favorite hip stretch –>

you are sitting in a double-stag position on the ground. “Open” your legs more, as in, unbend your knees, unscrunch your stag position.
Then, lean onto one side of your hip so you can lean over your front leg. You can extend or contract your legs to get more stretch.
Its my favorite!

Thank you so much for these turn out articles, they have really encouraged me to keep working on my turn-out. Also they have given me hope that turn-out isn’t everything.
Thanks!

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